Art Crimes Interview with How and Nosm by Brett Webb (2001)

Art Crimes: Give a little history of how you guys started..
Nosm: We started graffiti in 1989 in a little suburb of Düsseldorf called Hochdahl. You know the Neanderthal? That's where it was found. I got into it, because I was skateboarding and all my friends were four or five years older were into tagging, so I got into tagging too. I didn't even know it was graffiti, I was just writing my name. I invented some crazy names, you know toy names.
Me and my brother started at the same time. I quit skating and was doing nothing for awhile, and then a friend of mine came and showed us sketches of pieces. He was already advanced. We started earlier, but we were just doing throwups and tags. "Oh shit?! Colors? Pieces? Cool!" A week later we went to do pieces. That was around the end of 1990. And from there we just kept on painting.
We had a little crew, it was called ABS or BKA. BKA is like the FBI here in the US.
We split after a little while, because we were more into it and he was still going to school and we had a little job on the side just doing graffiti. We started RAL, my brother came up with the name and from there it just developed.

AC: RAL is just the two of you?
Nosm: There is another guy MEGX, he started painting trains with us. And after a little while he quit. He paints once in awhile. And we had somebody else here from New York, but we had problems with him. He's definitely not RAL anymore. Right now it's just me and my brother and Cem2. Cem2 put himself down, he's like family. The whole TATS crew is RAL, but it's actually just me and my brother.

AC: When was the first time you came to New York?
Nosm: April '97.

AC: Between '90 and '97 you toured Europe?
Nosm: Mostly just Germany. Hamburg, Frankfurt, Munich a little bit Paris. All by ourselves, we had no connections. We didn't need any connections, I guess. We were already two people, me and my brother, which is the best. We just travelled and did our thing.
Our sister had been to New York and she knew this family in the Bronx. So she asked if we wanted to visit and stay... "Of course, let's go" So we decided to stay a month. When we got here I had only one address, for the Fat Joe store. I went there and met up with Brim.
I said, "I'm looking for some writers."
Brim said, "Well do you have pictures?"
"Of course." So we showed him our blackbooks and photos. So he gave us a beeper number, and told us to call it.
A few days later we met up with Bio. They said, "Nice stuff" and took us around to some spots. First they gave us one wall that we had to paint by ourselves, I think to see if we were ok. We did some more walls and before we left they said that they wanted us to represent TATS Crew in Germany.
And everybody was bugging out, they would say, "Do you know Daim?"
"No."
"Do you know Loomit?"
"No."
We didn't know anybody.
"Why did you come here?"
"Just to paint. I don't know."
It just happened like that.

AC: So you went back and met all of those guys?
Nosm: Yeah, we went back and started traveling a little more. Spain, England. It just happened. Through Magic, we went to a pretty famous jam in Essen. That's when Magic introduced us to Loomit and we met Can2. We just started meeting people then.
The European scene is very big, but very tight. Once you're in the circle everyone knows you.

AC: Do you miss that part of Europe? How easy it is to travel?
Nosm: Yes... no not really. I've travelled a lot. If you meet people from Europe they've been to at least 5 countries, because everything is so small and close together. It's all one family.
We did the same thing in South America. People in Columbia introduced us to people in Peru. It's cool.

AC: What did you think of South America?
Nosm: The first time we went to South America was to Argentina. Met with a lot of people there. We painted a lot there. There's a nice system there.

AC: Is it easy to paint there?
Nosm: Walls, they don't really care about. We thought it would be really messed up there. Argentina is the richest country in South America. So when we got there we thought it looked like Spain, like Barcelona. They have halls of fame on the back of houses and no one cares. They say, "Oh nice art!"
Recently we went to the poorer section of South America, to Bogata. It was way different. Really dirty. We saw this ghetto that was crazy. Two, three feet high garbage everywhere. No windows in the houses. It was really big. Little kids are dirty, with no clothes and begging.
We went to one store, a shop, I don't know. We were with somebody. This guy was trying to organize a wall. He said we couldn't take pictures, but he knew someone in there. So we went into this one shop, there were crazy drugs in there.

AC: Cocaine?
Nosm: Yes, everything. There was a milkcrate full of weed. No one was even looking at it, because weed is nothing there.
I was scared to even look around, being white and clean. Everyone was looking at us. And we understand everything they're saying, and they don't know we understand.
My boy hooked up with one of the bosses. He said that we had to paint a character on his store. But it didn't look like a store. But we didn't have colors, and I didn't really want to paint for him there. I just wanted to do a quick silver piece and get out.
He said "No, first you have to paint this character. Then you can paint that wall."
So my brother says, "We'll give you $5".
"What am I going to do with $5?...Wait US dollars? Let me see."
So my brother gets the money out and another guy comes up and says, "I want to get paid, too."
So the boss says, "No, this is me. Come with me. You can paint there, but you have to be quick. How long are you going to paint?"
"Five minutes."
So while we're painting he was there watching out behind our backs. To make sure we don't get robbed or jumped. I'm painting and I'm feeling it. I looked back and the whole village is out there, mad people. Some people with no clothes. We had a bag with our camera in it, and we're thinking were going to get robbed. And people are going crazy with the commotion, yelling and snapping, saying this and that. So the guy tells us we have to get out of there.
So we left and the next day from far away we were taking pictures. Other people come along and said, if they see you here they're going to crack your head.
When we left there the military police stopped us, because they want to know what a white boy is doing in there. So we say that we're just looking, and they put us up against the wall. Everybody goes in there to buy drugs. The guy we were with had a little weed on him, but they didn't care about that.
In Columbia every day we painted. Even when we had permission the cops would stop us. But then when we did a character, they changed and said, "Ok, that's something different." But when you start buffing the wall they start, "No, no."
They do a lot of roller political stuff, which is illegal there. So they ask what we're going to do and we had to tell them, "Nothing political, nothing religious." And that's okay. They ask you who you know and you just tell them that you have permission and they don't bother you.
Peru is the same. We were painting in a hall of fame and I asked my boy if it's okay. He said not to worry. A couple of days later we go back to do another wall and next thing I'm sitting on the back of a police pickup truck. We had to push the pickup because it wouldn't start. They tell us to get out because the truck never starts.

AC: But they have guns?
Nosm: Always. They always have machine guns. They don't shoot plastic bullets, they shoot the real thing.
Bolivia was the same thing. You walk through the streets and you will definitely be stopped. We walked past one cop and he asked for a passport. We told him that we're not giving him our passport. So he starts screaming about security. He calls over another guy and he tells that we have to show them, that it's for our security. And they start asking us about what we were doing there, where we were staying, where are you going? We told him that it wasn't any of their business. So they wanted to take us, so I showed him my ID. They wrote down the number, we walk another half a block and we get stopped again.
They didn't want money. Perhaps it was because of the September 11th attack. At night you don't see a single cop.

AC: Did you paint at night?
Nosm: In Bogata and Peru we did mainly productions. And silver pieces you could do in the day time. I asked someone and they said, "Yes, yes. Paint, paint."
Bogata we just did silver pieces.

AC: You painted with Os Gemeos in South America?
Nosm: No just in Portugal and New York.

AC: So tell us about that, everyone in the world wants to know about the meeting of the twins.
Nosm: There is a festival in Portugal. We were invited, along with Tasek, me and my brother, Os Gemeos, and CMP. We got there the day before everybody. So the first thing we did was go check out the train system and we've gotta buy paint. So we ask the organizer, and he says that there is no paint to find. We met some toys who said they could take us to get some. They had all Montanas. So we bought some cans. Tasek and Gemeos came down the first night. We were sure it was just going to be us and Os Gemeos that night, which was cool. I don't know, it's like a chemical we all have. It's weird. We showed them what were going to do, and we went the next night. It was lovely, we did a nice subway car. The next day they had to leave, they were only there for two days. We did a few murals with Swet and at the jam.
We stayed a week, because after that we went to Athens, Greece to another little event. Bates was there, Kacao from Berlin and some other writers.

AC: So do Os Gemeos speak German?
Nosm: We speak Spanish, it's pretty close. Because they live in South America they can speak Spanish.

AC: When I've seen Os Gemeos paint, they don't talk much. They don't have to, they just start painting and keep working. Is it the same for you?
Nosm: Of course. But, I tell my brother before we go what I'm going to do,and then he knows. It is the same for them, I guess. But when we painted with Crash and Daze and TATS, they talked, they're cool.

...

AC: You guys are still active on all parts of graffiti, it's not just productions. People know your productions. Do you think that'll ever change? Where you just do canvases?
Nosm: It changes when you get older. You don't want to have beef with the cops. You get a family. I don't know. I still have a lot of time. I know different writers have comebacks, like Seen... .

AC: Stay High.
Nosm: Yeah, he just came home and he is everywhere tagging. 52 years old. He had a big break. But people get their flashes and they have to do something again. If you're a true writer, from the bottom of your heart, you're always going to do something. Do a tag, 'cause that's the way you start. A lot of people start and just do legal work, I respect that, too. It's graffiti, of course. I had the experience of painting trains, bombing, tagging and now that I've done it, I don't want to miss it. It's definitely more fun than doing a big production. People who blaze trains, "That's graffiti!" I mean to do a nice wall, with a big production, that's nice. If you only do that, you need something to explode. I need a balance. I need a balance.

AC: Do you want to do canvas more?
Nosm: No. Not really. Sometimes I do a lot of canvas. I don't do canvas for commission. I just do something nice for myself, and if someone comes around and they ask, "How much?" I tell them to just take it. I'm not a gallery guy. The whole TATS crew isn't into galleries. We've done one here, one there. Daze, Crash, those are the original pioneers. Not to forget Taki, Stay High. They never made it into galleries. That's their [Daze's and Crash's] section. I'm missing a big part of history, so I don't even get into it. I don't have any value in the market. If my canvas is next to a Lee? It has no value. It might be nice, but it has no history, no name. You always pay for the history and the name.

AC: Is there stuff that you want to do? Sculpture, design?
Nosm: Sculpture sounds nice, but it takes a lot of time. It's a way different media. I've done stones, different letters. I gave them away.

AC: Is Europe different, are they trying to find ways of making it legal or accepted?
Nosm: It's the same as here. If you ask someone if they like graffiti, they'll so no to tags. But if you show them a piece, they'll say, "That's nice! That's not graffiti." And if you start explaining to them, "It starts with a tag." They so, "No, this is art."

AC: You guys have been doing 3D styles for awhile. Was there any one person that got you doing that?
Nosm: Not really. I of course got influenced by Daim. Delta was doing it before. And Erni, of course. But [Daim was] so realistic. The productions were amazing. Even here in New York, everyone was like, "3D? What's that? Nice" I was doing semi-3D stuff. But he had the light and all that, definitely I learned from that. And then Loomit inspired us a little bit for awhile. From there we just did our own thing. But I like to do not only 3D. Sometimes I switch, just plain. Sometimes 3D with outlines. I mix it, so I don't get bored. I've done so many walls.

AC: From a pure letter standpoint, who influenced you. I've noticed recently you're stuff looks softer, a little more legible. More old school looking, but you're still doing all the fancy no outline stuff with them.
Nosm: You always go through phases. I was getting better with my styles, so I was, "I'll do this, I'll connect this." You go crazier and crazier, until you think it's a little too much. Some people will notice it, some people will like it. But you have to notice it and slow down.
So we've been doing different stuff and I'm probably a little bit lazier.
You also need to switch around to evolve.

AC: Do you wish you could do trains the same way you do your walls? Do you wish you could spend as much time on a train? Nosm: Sure, but I wouldn't do the same thing as I would on a wall. That doesn't belong on trains. It's too fancy.
The productions that are coming from Europe have too much kitsch. They're trying to perfect it too much. I like it a little more rough. The New York flavor, I guess.
I would never do a 3D on a train.

AC: Is there anything else we should talk about?
Nosm: We have a video coming out. Me and my brother have been planning a video for awhile, almost a year. For along time a lot of graffiti videos were coming out. So we thought we should wait a little bit and collect some more stuff. There's a lot of people on it. It's not going to be a How and Nosm video. We've got a lot of different countries: Italy, Greece, Portugal, New York, Argentina, Australia, Canada, Germany... you know mixed up. We want to make it international. There is material from about one year. There's some older stuff from Australia that hasn't been seen. Not a lot of people know about what's going on in Australia, so we definitely wanted to put in on there. It's definitely a fat scene.
We went it to be a little different than the typical graffiti video. That's why we've been working on it for so long. I have to be satisfied, or we won't bring it out to the market.
We also have the website coming out. Some guys from Toronto are putting it out.

How and Nosm