Art Crimes Swatch1 Interview by Brett Webb (1996)

This interview was conducted in 1995 through email for Art Crimes and was edited by Brett Webb. Big props go to Swatch for taking the time to answer all of the questions and not hold back. Interview © copyright 1996 Brett Webb, Art Crimes. Do not republish without permission.

Art Crimes: When did you start writing and how did you get started?
Swatch: I started writing when I started at a new high school in 1985. I was going to Theodore Roosevelt High School, in the Bronx. I have articles from the newpapers that list it as one of the worst and most dangerous in the city. Being Puerto Rican and Mexican but looking white and coming from a prestigious private school in Manhatten I stuck out like a sore thumb at that school. So I started hanging with these crazy guys who called themselves the Desperados. Originally they wanted to beef to me about talking to some girl, so they called me over by saying, "Hey Swatch." Swatch had a big clothing line in the better days, and I had a few shirts and lots of watches that I lifted for that fivefinger discount. So the name stuck. Back then everyone had a tag or a codename, it was just part of living in the ghetto.

We had some problems with these guys who called themselves the Four Horsemen, you know like of Apocalypse. So we challenged them to a football game on the field outside Yankee Stadium. This was a really big event and maybe about 50 people came to watch. Back then not everything had to be settled in a fight. You could battle on the mic, on the turntables, on the floor (breakdance),or in a football game. If you had to throw hands, it would be the fairest fight you could ever get. Those were the rules back then, because it would be better to fight one on one then jump someone. And to jump in on a fight would mean that your man couldn't handle his own shit. Then what's the point of hanging with him if he can't look out for himself? How can he look out for you? We beat these guys big time. Even dislocated someone's jaw, and we made the crew famous. We all ended up at this pizza shop back home and hung out. We decided to become one crew and consolidate the ranks. We decided on the name The Rebels, but I told them that it was a graff crew and hooked up by Zephyr. So I called it The Rebels Movement, TRM, also The Roosevelt Mob. So we became a high school gang, and not everyone was a real graffiti writer. Since I killed the school with graffiti, TRM became even more infamous.

I really got started when I hung out with writers from outside the school like Kace, Kraze or Tru2. They introduced me to the outside world of the graffiti underground. And from then on I got into the graff scene, and became famous very fast. Back in the days, I was more of a marker and sticker man. The first real writer to hand a spraycan to me was Zone TCT, and he's still a good friend of mine. I mostly took motion tags, and my ventures into the layups and yards weren't impressive enough to warrant a spot in any books. But I know that I killed all the uptown D line stations, and I was one of the rooftop kings of the 4 line.

AC: What crews have you been down with?
SW1: I have been down with all the best crews that have existed in NYC. Writers who list about 25 crews behind their tag have a problem. The best crews I could name are TRM, FLY id, KD (Cope & Co.), TFO (The Fresh Ones, 2&5 line KINGS!!!) TFT (Too Fuckin' Tuff), UMXS(Urban Mechanix), OTB(Out To Bomb), TPT( Braer & co.).

I really think that the "crews" that are just letters that people hook up are wack. If you go up to a writer and spit on their piece and dis their crew, they probably wouldn't care, because they just hook up the letters for fame or to validate themselves. But a real crew wouldn't take that kind of shit and squash any dis like that quickly. Those writers from back in the day NYC know the real truth of what crew out heads out and what crew was just some fluffy letters....

Part 2

AC: Who was your influence in the beginning?
SW1: Even before I started writing I would see a Mitch 77 tag and Gismoe tag outside my building, the D train station had a big Mitch blockbuster in it, and the schoolyard across the street had a Mitch ticktock blockbuster that I could see outside my window. Inside the schoolyard, there was a piece with a Bodé character, a naked lady with big breasts and huge pink nipples. I was about 8, and couln't read the piece, but I would cover my face and look at the lady from between my fingers. I also remember writers like GMAN PGA, and Tracy 168. Before I took the name Swatch, I used to tag just because I was there, and it would just happen. I would write Oops. My initials are O.P.S., but someone wrote Oops MSK, so I would also write Cave, which I thought was cool. But then I saw that there was a Cavs. Sometimes I would write Uzi, like the machine gun, but most of the time I would write my name OMAR.

When I really got into writing my only influence was Bronx writers, so my style wasn't about sweating anybody's pieces, just getting my fame as a graffiti writer, not a wildstyle kid. The Bronx had its own graffiti style, especially from writers like Tracy and Cope.

Since Cope killed shit, everyone adopted that quickie bubbleletter style that meant you were a bronx kid, brooklyn had a mechanical style, and manhattan was mostly taggers and piecers, since there was no room for inbetween, in such a crowded borough...

AC: Do you count anyone as an influence on your current work?
SW1: I think that since I didn't get caught up trying to emulate the style of other writers I have my own unique style that says, "fuck it." You may not like it, but you know you can't go over me cuz I paid my dues and will catch it back. I think the only writers who have their own perfect style are CLARK, BARON, GHOST, REAS, and maybe a few others that I can't think of at the moment. Since I'm into the art thing, I would say that today I'm influenced by Clive Barker, lots of science fiction, and Dali...

Part 3

AC:Why did you start writing?
SW1: It may go into the answers above, but also once I started and was working downtown. I would tag everywhere so the fame eventually makes you do it more. And when you meet other writers and they treat you like some graffiti god, it gets to your head. And of course

no outsider who wasn't in the graff scene, when the graff scene was nyc, could understand 100% the feeling of seeing your name on the train.

AC:Has the reason you write changed?
SW1: Yes, of course, I'm 26 now, so I don't write like I used to. We were all kids, living at home, cutting school. It was the culture. Today's writers don't realize that it was all we did: write, bomb, cut school, hit the trains at night, go to the bench, and start all over. It's sad, however, that although most people are destined to stay in the ghetto, a lot of us wasted our public school education and chances to improve our station in life.

For example, when a friend of mine from LA came to NY, I took him to a wall that people where working on, I'm not naming names cuz I'm not trying to dis them, but, he commented that in LA you wouldn't see so many people writing at such an age, late 20's to early 30's. But I told him that anybody else is just writing for the fad and still getting on with college, jobs,etc. We lived the graff life and sadly, for whatever reasons, society has it stacked against minorities. I told him that they really don't look like someone could accept them as stockbrokers or bank managers...but I'm not running the system. And that's one of the reasons that I still write, because I love the graff life, and if I feel that it's wrong to criminalize a whole culture. Sure we bombed the trains, but it was art. And a lot of people could have the chance to express themselves through this artform, but cannot [because of the laws]. And you know graffiti writers are the front line for public information. We put out the facts before anyone else. A lot of artists put messages about drugs, AIDS, and anti- violence in their artwork, so the system is happy to repress any form of expression that it can. It has taken up the responsibilty of fighting graffiti without giving people the chance to do graffiti art, or presenting the facts for the public to decide.

The media likes to talk about gangs and drugs, but in NY the gang scene died in the 70's. So [to the media] any group of young Latinos or Blacks is a gang. They fail to realize that in graffiti a crew is just a group of artists with the same goals or style. And the media like to say that drug dealers use graffiti to advertise their drugs. That's the dumbest thing that I have ever heard of. Normal people can't really read graffiti, they just see it as scribbles or vandalism. But if you put yourself to it, and have an open mind, you could learn to read it very quickly. But throw in the idea that it's drug/gang related and you have a public relations nightmare. Just because someone has a craving for drugs he all of a sudden knows how to read graffiti to find his drugs? I dont think so.

The fact that a lot of graffiti attracts more vandalism and signals neglect doesn't mean that if you erase graffiti, problems will end. You can have a nice painted wall but you're still in the middle of the ghetto.

It's just a politician's ploy. Just like when that kid was paddled in Singapore, every politician and their mother wanted to introduce a bill for paddling graffiti writers, (it happened in New York and LA) even though there would be a chance in hell of passing it they got their soundbites and they play on TV that they expected.

The police do the same. they've been on TV talking about beefed-up vandal squads and hi-tech stuff like night vision goggles, but if graffiti was allowed then they would be out of work. And I never heard of them catching any real writer thanks to those goggles.

Its just like the drug war, you have all these agencies and police fighting drugs in our country and overseas but they will never end man's need to change their existence through mind altering substances. It's been a characteristic of human beings for thousands of years. The only thing that the drug war has created is a whole generation of criminals who are now ostracized by normal society but accepted by the criminal society. So where do you expect them to go to for money, jobs and acceptance? I won't even get into the unfairness of mandatory sentences and crack vs. cocaine, thats a whole book right there....

Another media myth about graffiti that I always remember was when the TV news said stay tuned for the secret language of graffiti. They then had TV cops talking about graff that any writer would say is BS. But the best example was when they went up to a wall by Bio and Lase TAT and pointed to the blood drip graphics that Bio did in his piece, they said that this person was killed by a knife because of the drips. So much for the secret language of graffiti....

Part 4

AC: What are the differences between what's going on today and what you were doing back when you started?
SW1: First, all the good writers are all grown men, who now have different measures of responsibilty: family, jobs, rent. You can't be as reckless as you were when you were a kid staying out all night. I remember so many fun nights of staying out tagging until the sun came up it's not even funny...now everything has to be planned, nobody really goes out to just bomb until their fingers fall off unless they are young, newjacks whatever. You also are more hesitant on weekends, because the possibilty of staying in jail waiting to see a judge on Monday, (if your turn comes up!) is very real.

I also wish that more writers would do canvases, and realize their value.

Anybody can take a picture of your work and use it for their own purposes, graff mags, New York photo book, postcards, anything, but you can't sell the wall or get back the paint or the effort that you put in. And the more canvases on regular people's walls means greater acceptance by the rest of society.

I think that it has mostly changed for the better, but I don't like the idea that a lot of young kids jump on the hiphop/graffiti bandwagon. New York has also been invaded by suburban and European writers. Years ago you could get your paint vicked if you weren't from New York...

AC: You mentioned that graf is a stepping stone to other arts. Why do you continue to stay active in the graffiti community then?
SW1: The answer why I stay active overlaps into some of my previous answers about how graff is viewed by society, but its mostly the fame. I could go anywhere and always be recognized by other writers, even if I haven't seen them for years. And lots of writers know me because I really am a friendly & fair guy, and like to meet and talk to new writers.

And sometimes graffiti is a compulsion that has to be satisfied every once in a while. And because I'm 26 and dress for success I can really get over on hitting trains. Sometimes I can bomb insides with ink and then just sit back and read the NY Times and watch the reactions. I don't know about other writers but I sometimes write my name with my finger hundreds of times in the air without even thinking about it, maybe I need to see a therapist or a psychologist about this.

About the stepping stone stuff,

graffiti art is a form of art and expression that must be accepted as a positive outlet.

Part 6

AC: What do you think about the way graffiti has been documented thus far?
SW1: I think Henry Chalfant did a great thing for graffiti, but has profited off writers for long enough. Martha Cooper's new book, R.I.P. about graffiti memorial walls was so full of bubblegum information that I still laugh when I think about it. Zines are another thing. They're cool and I've worked with lots of them for years, but it's basicaly a love/hate thing. If you think about it, no real New York graff writer does a phat zine. I want to change all that and stop outsiders from cashing in on New Yorkers. I also dislike the cheap quality of a lot of zines, and especially the lack of intelligence shown in the zines: bad spelling, dumb interviews, no important issues, etc. I think the best are ON THE GO and SKILLS. Fly id will be on that list soon!

Videograf

is a whole story all together. My internet beef with them was a result of a dispute that a friend of mine had with them, it's been settled and I'm not attacking them all out anymore. But I'm not going to hold back any opinions I have on them. I think the novelty of their idea is worn out and unless they get a grip and improve their product, their market will fall out. Any real New York writer wants nothing to do with them, because they know all the rumors and don't want anybody to profit from them. And after their run in with the police and the news, I doubt their credibility and confidentiality!!! But the market is there and writers around the globe want a graff video, whether or not it has New Yorkers in it. Video Graff # 8 has my partners in crime Clark and Ces in an interview. I've done trains with Clark and Cope that they have footage of, but that's their own editorial right not to use it, and I don't fault them for that. But a lot of writers are thinking about the footage they sent in, or why they get cut out and the problem there is that. To a real New York graffiti gangsta it's like getting played, or dissed, or wasting their valuable time. ON THE GO'S "REPEAT OFFENDER" is an awesome video, even without Clark and Espo doing that top to bottom on the clean train.

As for Upski's book, its cool, but he's basically a writer in the hiphop scene and the real wigger that he claims to hate so much. It should have more graff in it, and not be so heavy on the text, but that's just my opinion. I'm glad he did what he did.

AC: What do you think of the internet? What about graf on the net?
SW1: I think the internet is cool if you want to find research information, and see cool homepages. But most graff writers on the net I'm sure that they are not the true vandals they claim to be. I don't want to piss anybody off or give anybody the wrong idea, so I'll hold back on my answer. Also especially since I'm working an article about internet graff for the first issue of FLYiD.

As for the internet in general, I'm sure some people could benefit from existing in a faceless net culture, but it's sad that people immerse themselves in it. All the hate email I get when I attack someone on the net or break some netiquette rule just goes to show what kind of sad sacks live the internet life. Generally New Yorkers are very savvy, street smart and cynical. So when I get into the chat groups and go crazy, like dissing the pope, or telling foul two-part question jokes that no New Yorker would fall for... It's just a fun way of killing time, and being a graff writer I like breaking rules. So I usually get thrown out by the online host and it doesn't faze me because it's not an important part of my life to be accepted by internet geeks. Someone may be reading this online and saying he's calling me a geek, but I'm not talking about people who seek information on their own personal interests like graffiti. Just the people who want to chitchat online with cute names and distorted images of their true selves.

Part 7

AC: What do you think about what's going on in Europe?
SW1: Graffiti-wise they really are doing some amazing things, but nothing can compare to New York graffiti art. It had an adrenaline all its own. They take their time doing walls and pimping photos all over the world. But we didn't have the time. We had cops, other writers, train schedules, and other shit to deal with...

AC: You said that ID was tight, is there anything specific you want to say that?
SW1: Like I said before about crews, I don't like phony crews, or writers who tell people to hook up this crew or that crew, so you have a bunch of people writing the fake crew's letters just because they want to be associated with some better writer. A real crew is about backing up the guys you roll with, and defending the honor of the crew, plus its a big trust thing. Old New York writers are so secretive it's ridiculous. I know all the best writers, but nobody really needs to know exactly where someone lives or their real names. That kind of info is not needed to get along in the graff underworld, and anybody who needs so much info is really suspect. Ten years ago someone tagging on your house, or looking for you at your job, or tagging your neighborhood just to get on your nerves, was a real fact of life. So anyway Fly ID has always been writers who are really down with Fly ID, at least in NYC and DC. I don't run the LA side of things, but at least here it like that. I would back up TRM or Fly ID, even if it means getting beat up, because I know that I can expect the same of my friends...

AC: Shout outs?
SW1: Shout outs to Chino BYI, SEUS, R.i.P., clark, Ces, Rak, Ric, Tyke, Tabe, Noe, Baron, Dice, Cope, Droch, Lase, Mark, Emz and all the writers who write, keep up the good work.

You're always going to be a toy to someone, so don't let it stop you.

This document is archived at https://www.graffiti.org/interviews/swatch/